ABCs of Digital Marketing: AI, Big Data, Customer Action – The Bridge Podcast

By: Kristy Esch

Known for her many years of writing long and short form articles for the multifamily industry. Her amazing writing continues to shine in other industries.

Get ready to talk the ABCs of digital marketing: artificial intelligence, big data, and customer action. On this week’s episode, Andy and Fabian chat with RJ Talyor of AI marketing firm, Pattern89. Learn why a company’s brick and mortar location should be seen as an attribute and how to ensure a brand’s digital presence leads to sales even before the customer visits. Like what you hear? Make sure to leave us a review and subscribe to The Bridge!




Intro: Customers piped up and just said, you know, I just wished you would just tell me what to do. And um, it’s the same reason we go to a trainer. It’s the same reason we you know we just want someone to tell us what to do. And especially in the kind of the crazy world of choice and digital marketing where all this data’s flooding in. You just want to know what to do.


The Bridge is a podcast for all businesses where the consumer purchase takes place at a physical location, but those same consumers are shopping in narrowing their choices down online. That jump from online to in-store is where most businesses struggle. Each episode we will focus on real strategies and examples from industry experts on how to dominate this complex and competitive environment by sharing the latest trends in technology and process.


Andy Medley: Hey everybody, this is Andy Medley and Fabian Rodriguez. We are here at The Bridge. We have RJ Talyor this week, which we are super excited about. He is CEO and founder at Pattern 89. How are you doing RJ?


RJ Talyor: Great. Thanks for having me.


Andy : RJ has got an awesome background. And for those that are out there and the dealing with the online to the in-store journey, he has had a ton of experience at multiple software companies, both big and small, working specifically on kind of the customer-facing product stuff. Is that a fair, fair assumption? Can you tell us a little about your history?


RJ: You know, I’ve worked almost 17 years in tech and I got my start at Exact Target where I helped marketers figure out how to put their data into email and how to make it more and more relevant. And then about three years into that journey, it was a 2006-07  timeframe, the leadership said, hey, RJ, go figure out this mobile thing. That was right when the iPhone came out. So I was one of those guys that you saw in line at the at the store on the news who was waiting for the first generation iPhone. I was covering my face, you know, like I don’t want to be like this guy. But I became mobile guy and I ran a mobile business. We sold our first contract, which was an SMS product up through push messaging, geo-fencing, Internet of things. And it was an awesome ride through all of that. Through the Salesforce acquisition, I was continued to be really active in the Mobile Marketing Association and the location-based marketing association. And then went to work for a location-based social product for two years before starting Pattern 89. So throughout, it’s always been digital marketing. How do we bring products and tech in a really easy way that marketers can take advantage of their data.


Andy: Yeah. That’s awesome. And so Pattern 89. Tell us a little bit about that.


RJ: Sure. We’re an AI platform for digital marketers and what Pattern 89 does is gives marketers a to-do list for how to improve their Facebook, Instagram and Google advertisements. And every day we run our algorithms across billions of data points to figure out what is it that you should do that’s statistically significant. And we provide that in a little easy to-do list. It takes about eight minutes to improve your results, about 21%. So we’ve built up this giant, dataset our AI and, um, it’s been really fun to work with big ecommerce retailers and build with the team that I’ve worked with before.


Andy: Yeah. And I think that’s what’s super fascinating from the listeners’ perspective is that a lot of them are competing against the big brands, right? Or they see themselves competing against big brands even though they might be a little bit more local. And I think that’s helping them differentiate why maybe a local and national is a little bit different in how you can kind of carve your niche inside of that space. Um, real quick, when you say takeaways, can you give an example of what some of the takeaways are that lead to the 21%?


RJ: Sure. There’s all sorts of little windows of opportunity that emerge and then disappear almost overnight. And it might be something like to promote a specific product like a couch, let’s say that a red couch is performing better than a blue couch with audiences of women 18 to 27. And so we’ll say, for that audience, change out the couch color. Or it might be for like a regional case like if your offering has fall colors in the background, like fall trees, is doing better than an ocean. So replace the background. And oftentimes, customers have all this imagery. They’re just like throwing it out there. They’re not sure what’s going to work and they’ll quote test it. But, you know, their test is limited to the only their data and only their sample.


RJ: What we do is we use a technique called cluster analysis to find other ads that are very similar to that. Identify what are the components that are driving the performance of the another’s adds up. And then test if it’s statistically significant and then say, all right, if it is, now, you should do it, too.


Andy: Yeah. That’s very cool.


Fabian Rodriguez: Yeah, my brain is spinning right now. No, I’m, and I’m serious because we just had this huge marketing discussion on the book that we’ve got coming out. And regionally there’s like all these things that are specific to those regions. Yes. Like, oh my gosh, yeah. It’s so powerful. There are regional differences. What works for a national campaign might not work specific for regions or for different age groups. There are really small and big changes.


RJ: Word choice, sentiment, special emojis or special characters, all can have giant impacts and you’d think that they might not. And a lot of times marketers, either have an ab testing approach that’s too slow to take advantage of some of these or their data’s not big enough to take advantage of it. So then you have to plug into a platform like ours, um, where AI can detect patterns or outliers that you don’t have access to just because you’re working on your own marketing set that can fit in a single excel spread.


Andy: Yeah, for sure. For sure. And it is, what’s amazing is the fact that how targeted social allows you to get, so, you know, you’re talking about the red couch for the 18 to 24-year-olds that live in northern Seattle versus the blue. That’s pretty insane.


RJ: Yes. Yeah. And you know, it, it can feel very, very complicated. And so, you know, my background, I have an English degree and I have a master’s in English. I’m not a statistician. I’m married to one. My wife is a statistical chemist, so she understands all of these things.


Andy: I didn’t know that was a thing.


RJ: Well, yeah, me neither before I met her. But you know, we’re making it really easy for marketers to take advantage of these opportunities through that. Here’s what you do, here’s your to-do list. Here are the actions and here’s why. So that’s been kind of the fun. Like how do you bring all that AI and statistical significance to a marketer who is like me?


Andy: Yeah. No, I love that. And I think that’s something we can all think about in narrowing it down. When you think about the application of data that you’re receiving because it can be so overwhelming if you act. I love the concept of thinking instituted lists. It actually makes it a little bit easier. There’s probably some marketing evolution for you to get to that point. Yeah, I love that.


Fabian: Did it always start out as like an eight minute to-do list? Like you can accomplish this in eight minutes or did it start at like, alright, we need to bring this down? If it was like half an hour now, like how did you improve.


RJ: We created this wonderful data-rich dashboard that marketers would look at and say like, okay, so now what? And we had all these cool things that were, I mean, like just tons of stuff. And they’re like, okay, well which one will have the best, the highest impact? Which one should I actually do today? And we found that when we would just leave it up to somebody, they would kind of be overwhelmed with the choice. And instead we made it a prioritized to-do list. And we had a customer… we do these customer round tables where we show our customers what we’ve built. And then one of the customers piped up and just said, you know, I just wished you would just tell me what to do. And it’s the same reason we go to a trainer. It’s the same reason we… you know, like we just want someone to tell us what to do. And especially in the kind of the crazy world of choice and digital marketing where all this data’s flooding in. I just want to know what to do. And, um, that’s been kind of a fun evolution of our product for sure.


Andy: No, that’s awesome. Yeah, totally awesome. Good question there, Fabian. So if we were backing up a little bit and, and we were talking about this earlier, RJ, that a lot of our customers aren’t at that level of sophistication yet, right? They don’t have access to that data. They might not be national, it might not be Unlimited’s brand, for example, or Walmart. Sure. Um, but they also have a physical location and they know that their shoppers or their customers are online first. Nobody’s, I shouldn’t say nobody, but most people aren’t starting a brand new shopping process by walking into a store. They are narrowing their choices down online and a lot of them struggle with the… some of them are struggling to see whether or not there is a competitive advantage to actually having a location. So I’m curious from your perspective on how you think about that, that is an advantage versus a disadvantage and what kind of place it plays in this brave new world.


RJ: Sure. You know, I think we’re seeing the in-store experience actually being a big differentiator for brands. I’ve met with a number of these e-commerce retailers who have said that their physical stores are the differentiation and they’ve gone in and said, our service professionals are experts or our partnerships with manufacturers are changing the game and actually help them beat out some of these bigger players who are e-commerce only. And you know, everyone, like I don’t, I would never say I love to go shopping, but like I’d like to touch and see and, um, sit, you know, and like experience and we all do. And that’s going to, you know, there’s, there’s a reason why the physical stores have always been so important. So, um, but the way that physical stores, um, are a part of that journey is a lot different. You know, in my world with Pattern 89 customers do a ton of research before they even talk to one of us, you know, and, uh, you know, before they come and they talk to us, they want all the information upfront. And by the time they have a conversation with me, they’re like, I’m ready to pilot. Let’s go. And I’m like, wait, but I want to tell you about it. Like, nope, I know. I’ve already done research. I’ve been at G2, I’ve downloaded your white papers, I’ve done all the research. I’m ready to go. And I think that that’s a same type of experience with these in-store folks. By the time I’ve walked into a location, I’ve already done the research. I’ve seen your ads. I’ve clicked on them, I’ve watched the videos, I’ve watched the, you know, the people on Youtube who are, um, talking about their experiences. I’ve, you know, researched the neighborhood, whatever the case is. And once I show up, I’m a really serious buyer. So what’s great about that as in like highly qualified. Um, but I’m, I’m coming in with whatever preconception.


RJ: So marrying, in my world of the location-based Marketing Association, it’s all about tying that physical store, that physical experience to the online experience. And I think that you know, digital marketing, um, maybe it doesn’t have that direct click through. I mean, you can do some in-store visit proxy metrics, but you got to think about what are the steps you want them to take before that. You want them to see and know that you exist. You want them to click and get an email list, click to the website, watch some videos. So that way when they come in, they have the information, well first off, they’re coming to you as opposed to your competitors. And then they have the information, you kind of armed them with the types of questions you want them to ask while you’re in-store that kind of lead them down the path of conversion. I think it’s, it is the differentiator. Service is a differentiator. That experience in-store.


Andy: Yeah. No, and I think that’s where I was going to go back to. So what I’m hearing you saying, I think that’s a big mind shift, um, is around the idea that I’m not getting sold in the physical location. I’m being serviced and more importantly validated because I am at the point where I’m going to have some very specific questions and I am at the end. That service is what causes me to buy, not the fact that you’re pitching me on value props around something like, hey, look at this, there’s a gym here. I already know there’s a gym here. Or look, there’s a dog park close. I already know that. I already know there’s a dog park close. Yes. Um, but it’s more like, am I feeling good about this place? Am I going to get good service here? Uh, have you taken the time to know who I am and why I’m here at this point in time and all of the research I’ve done online? So that I’m not starting over.


RJ: Yeah. I’ve heard multiple cases of people who live in my neighborhood who bought their house site unseen.


Andy: That’s insane.


RJ: Are you kidding me? Yeah, I can’t. I mean, I guess maybe I could, but, um, they’ve gone in virtual tours. They’ve done Google street view up and down the street. They’ve done all their research on Zillow. Um, and then they send a friend to the open house, um, with, cause they’re moving, they’re moving from out of town. They facetime you through the house, you know, like what, what, what happened to an open house where they marched a hundred people through and then they come up with a five people, you know, like it’s similar, you know.


Andy: Very similar. Yes. And that’s actually happening a ton in the multifamily space where a big percent of their lease sees, you know, are out of towners that are coming in town and they’re doing all their on the research online. They’re picking up the phone and calling you and saying, Hey, I’ve got a couple of questions real quick. I saw that. Or is this true? Or is this anywhere? Then they ask for the application to be sent if it’s not an online, right?


RJ: Yeah, yeah.


Andy: Totally, totally different world. But that’s the scary part about that is the fact that it’s, it feels like you’re out of control. And I think that from a, from a business perspective that is used to owning the entire experience once they walk in the door and they think about when you ask for the, hey, would you like a La Croix? What’s the first thing I’m prepping the salesperson that they needed to ask to get the person comfortable. That now feels like a loss of control. And the reality is it’s about accepting that.


RJ: Yes. Yeah. I mean effectively you have lost, you know, lost that I’m controlling the whole narrative because they’ve done on that research upfront. But you know, the kind of the clever thing is that you can actually impose some control by making sure that you’re mapping those touch points to their journey. That you’re, you know, doing advisory boards or customer feedback. Like how did you make this decision? And then aligning those videos or resources or whatever the case is, so that they can get the information that they want at the pace that they do. And then when they walk in your store, you know, that service-based experience kicks in.


Andy: Yeah, absolutely. And we talk a lot about the fact that your website is your best salesperson and your website is your physical presence. It just happens to be very digital, And if you think about it from that perspective, the ability to allow the consumer to ask the same questions on the site to engage meaningfully, um, beyond — what is typically taking place today — puts you in a massive advantage to the competitors that may not have decided to jump to the fact that they think about their online experience that way.


RJ: Yeah. You know, one of the proxies, um, that we struggle a little bit with is predictability. You know, it used to be that for so many in software space that so many email signups meant so many white paper downloads meant so many demos meant so many, whatever. And we’ve had to change our metrics at Pattern 89 to understand like, you know, what are the proxies that we use to understand … are more qualified pilots going to be coming in the door? And now we understand that, but for like six months we’re like, wait, this, this is all change. And that’s just really in the last three or four years. So I can’t imagine how these physical stores or physical places are trying to also retool all of the things that were quote best practices. You know, like everyone does a lot of research before they walk in the door. And that’s why service is so, so, so critical that, you know, that first experience when you walk in.


Andy: Yeah. And that’s what I was, I was actually thinking about the fact that when you look at some of the big brands, I mean the fact that Amazon bought Whole Foods is a great example of the importance of a physical location. As somebody that maybe always had a physical location as an example, and then I’m starting online versus vice versa. I have a great opportunity to understand what Whole Foods is doing differently. That may be I need to adjust my physical location to that. What kind of the big players in the ecommerce are seeing as the advantage of that physical location?


RJ: Yeah. You know, I went to New York maybe three weeks ago and it’s funny cause you go down the streets in New York and you see all these formerly online brands, they have all their physical locations, you know, and they’re doing these popups or a physical location. I’m like, oh, I thought that was just an online store. But they’re actually finding that,  they want to have a physical location for all the reasons that we have physical locations. You know, we hear all these stories about the retail stores closing or those types of things. But that’s the headline. But if you contrast that with the new crop of folks that you can see that there’s actually still a real benefit to that in-store experience or the physical presence.


Fabian: We’re talking about some of these examples and what comes to mind? It was so weird, like go into like a Bonobos or Warby Parker or what was the other one that we talked about? A Untuckit. Right, so you go to the same street that I was, but you just go there and I was like, I would like to buy that shirt. Yes. Like, Oh, what? I mean, you, you can’t buy the shirt. You can go in there and touch it, which is great, but it’s just like this weird thing where they have the location but then you still end up doing it online.


RJ: Well showrooming used to be a bad word. You know that term and retail space was, are you familiar with that term? Showroom? Well, so like in location, location-based marketing, they would say that you, if you’re looking for like a phone or computer that you would like at Best Buy and you’ll just like walk around the showroom, ask the tech or the person in the blue shirt and say hey, can you walk me through this, whatever, whatever… walk out and buy it from Amazon. And so it was then, you know, Best Buy was becoming a showroom. You know, where you wouldn’t actually purchase it. But now showrooming is actually a strategic advantage because they have such a wonderful experience, um, buying through Best Buy or an UNTUCKit or Warby Parker or whatever the case is and everyone’s comfortable with the shipping back and forth now, that they can actually use that as a part of their whole customer journey. They’ve been embracing retailer brands that have been embracing the showrooming effect and they want you to come in store, they want you to come and feel and touch and feel the experience.


RJ: And then they know that they’re not going to convert you. Cause there used to be this war between, um, that who gets credit for the sale, the eCommerce team or the physical retail team. And those teams used to battle it out about who got credit for it because the sales in-store were going down and the e-commerce was going up, but now they’ve unified. A lot of these marketers have unified teams and so there isn’t the competition anymore. It’s like, okay, how’s business? And people buy in whatever way they’re going to buy. They might buy it on their phone in the location. Um, and that counts towards our overall goal versus competing one versus the other. So it’s, it’s, I think companies have adapted, um, to some of the trends that you know, that whole showrooming term used to be literally a bad one.


Andy: Yeah. That’s interesting. I didn’t, I didn’t when you said that I ended up, but now I know what you’re talking about in best buy is actually a fascinating case study of a turnaround. This just awesome. Awesome.


RJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean like you used to go in there to buy everything and then you wouldn’t, and then now, now it’s where I go.


Andy: Yeah. So it’s, it’s weird how that happened. We talked a little bit about marketing data and really that’s a lot of what you guys are providing and your in the form of a to-do list. But for mainly big brands, right? And that’s based on the assumption… somebody’s putting you on the spot a little bit here, but that’s based on the assumption that they kind of have the basics of marketing, a digital marketing data done. When you think about the basics, for somebody starting or have just started to dip my toes and I’m starting to put more of my budget into online vs traditional marketing, how do you think about basics or what are some of the key things that I should definitely know when I start to measure my stuff from a marketing data perspective?


RJ: Well, it starts with the customer of course, and everybody, I think a lot of people skip over that to tactics, but it starts with the customer and then creating some personas around that customer. Who are you actually targeting? Who are our three to five key personas? Start there and then find a whiteboard and do the customer journey, which is so overplayed right now, but like it’s … talk about basics. Walk me through this per personas day or their journey with us. Um, what do they do that’s outside of a purchase with you or an experience with you? Where are they? What are they doing? What are they like, those types of things. Um, and then find the data. Um, it doesn’t have to be complicated. I think we make these projects really, really big. Like, find the data that supports that customer journey and then figure out where you’re right or not.


RJ: Right. And like that Whiteboard, validate it, um, and then figure out, uh, then the tactics to influence that journey. You know? So I think like, that’s when it just boils down to who are you marketing to? What do they do in a typical day that does or doesn’t include, um, uh, you or your products, um, or the thing that you’re trying to sell. And then what’s the fastest way that you can understand that from a data perspective. And, um, I personally am really impatient and I think that’s, uh, my, one of my best and worst qualities. But like I don’t have a whole lot of patience for like, weeks long data analysis projects that tell me what I actually inherently know. And I would imagine that, um, a lot of marketers or companies pretty much instinctively know, you know, there’s not like a whole lot of surprises in that. So, um, how do you get a sketch of the data that will then direct, um, and then validated, you know, find that sketch and then validate it with some data points and, um, and then go from there. So like those are the basics. I think that, um, even the most sophisticated marketers skip. Yeah, yeah. The, I think they do, um, for, for all sorts of reasons which are valid. But, uh, that’s where I would start …at the whiteboard.


Andy: Yeah. That is awesome. And then as you start to understand that, and I mean I’m trying to think about jumping in here a Fabian, but if we were taking that advice and saying, okay, so I am a, I’m a big regional furniture store and I’m going to start with a persona of a female 40 to 50 year old. Uh, and maybe some of that data is simply asking, um, somebody in that persona. Sure. As dumb as this sounds, after they buy, if I’ve got a good rapport with them. How’d you hear about us? Yeah, sure. And then did you search online and then how’d you find this online? And then once you got online, what did you do? Did you already know this when you came in? Yes. Yeah. I mean that it’s like basic stuff like that is like so insightful that we feel like is too basic for us to learn anything, but it’s actually, you can draw some significant insights from that.


RJ: Absolutely. And then in going from that persona to understand what are the three to five products that would be complementary purchases or, uh, what’s their timeframe for those purchases, that type of stuff. So you can start building the, um, journey from the time that they bought that first purchase into the next time. Yeah. And you know, on the creative side, what I find is, um, meaning like on the creative side, meaning, um, when we figure out what actually to show that, um, that woman who’s, um, into, you know, to buy a couch or whatever. Um, so much of it is opinion. I think that people like sectionals. I think that blue is today’s color, that type of stuff. And that’s where you can find, if you start digging into some of the data around that, you can find like, whoa, actually blue was two years ago and now it’s turquoise or whatever the case, you know, whatever the case is three years ago.


Fabian: And so do you find that sometimes your clients, when you’re telling them these things that they battle against the data?


RJ: 100% yeah. We as humans, we suffer from confirmation bias in all sorts of different things. And if you’ve been thinking it’s blue, it’s blue, it’s blue, no amount of data is going to tell you it’s turquoise because you’re the marketer, you’re the CEO, you’re the owner, whatever the case is, and you know that blue in your heart. So that’s, that’s, uh, one of the challenges of data science and AI in general is it’s going to present, uh, patterns or outliers that challenge your assumptions. And then you’ve got to figure out whether you’re gonna test that or ignore it or go with it, you know? And that’s Kinda risky.


Fabian: Gotcha. And do you have real examples that you can share with us from some of your clients that we’re actually putting this data to use? Like the things that you help them gather and say, hey, this is the path and then, you know, upon using that, that was the result, right?


RJ: Sure. There’s all sorts of them. We’ve got a bunch of case studies on our website. One of the most recent case studies was with a brand called Newton Baby and they sell mattresses and supplies for babies. Baby mattresses are their specific. We give them a to-do list that includes audience targeting, to creative changes, to ad placements. Put this on Instagram stories or shall we put this in the news feed? It’s like all sorts of different things.


RJ: And because they, um, took the alerts and put them to use… they saw 15% lift in the first two weeks of us using Pattern 89. So that case studies on our website, it’s fascinating because there’s all sorts of these opportunities that appear and then disappear on a daily or weekly basis. That can be overwhelming when you think about all the possibilities. But if you’re following just a quick to-do list, that takes eight minutes a day. Um, and that’s in an optimization as part of your to-do list. Like you check your email, you optimize your ads, you go to a meeting, whatever, you know, you eat lunch, you know, that’s just part of your routine and that’s, you know, increasing your lift or lifting your results 15%. Yeah, that’s a great example.


Fabian: I would do that. That would make it part of my day for 15% increase.


Andy: Yeah, I think that’s 1% is usually worth it if you’re doing one a day, but 15 would be, uh, would it be pretty nice? We talk about attribution a lot and one of the things that we work hard on is, uh, being able to tie the online activity and engagement to an in-store purchase. And there’s no real easy way to do that. But sometimes it is just a lot of data and mashing it together and saying, um, here’s the people that came to your website and then here’s the people that came online. How, how do you think about attribution?


RJ: Well, um, it, attribution is, it’s, it’s just to try and challenge period. And, uh, especially if you’re trying to match online and in-store, it’s like the holy grail for that connection. The challenge is actually the consumer. If that buyer would just walk into the store and tell you their first and last name, their email address and their phone number, and then we could match it to the cookie, um, that they use the search, we’d be in great shape and a lot of solutions and brands have tried to do that. They’re like human intercepts with an iPad or using a geofence. So once they crossed the geo-fence to enter the location, the app ID matches the cookie id, et cetera. But there’s all sorts of disconnects of course, because you don’t have the app on your phone anymore or you deleted your cookies or, um, safari just updated their you know, privacy setting, or whatever the case is.


RJ: So, um, I think there is a holy grail out there that I think it is out there. Instead, I think we need to again go back to basics and understand some proxy metrics and while pursuing the larger goal of attribution, like have a clean, clean, clean attribution. Instead understand basics directionally. Did we get more foot traffic today? How many bodies walked in the store and what are the other things that we’re doing? And then can we link a purchase once the purchase has complete committed link, that email address or once the email sign up or um, you know, like find those ties to it. And I think so many whiteboard sessions in, you know, meetings, et Cetera, are spent on how we can create this unfriendly consumer experience that would help the brand or the marketer understand better. The consumer just won’t adopt. Because they don’t download your app, turn location on accept push notifications and put it in their phone number and their, you know what I mean?


RJ: Like there is a way to get there, but it’s so unfriendly. But if you pick up the little crumbs along the way, um, through the journey, which is I’ve created enough value. As a brand, I’ve created enough value for you to give me your email address and I’ve created enough value for you to subscribe to our YouTube channel. I’ve created enough value for you to come into our workshop that we have in the store, um, and then sign up for more information and create a relationship with our associates or come into the physical space and take a tour. I mean, all of these thing… this is the hard way, right? It’s, it is the hard way, but it’s the pieces that we can connect and, uh, as marketers, we want it to be easier. If those damn consumers would just do what we told them to do.


RJ: But like consumers, we have to, we can’t alter their behavior. Instead, we have to work alongside it. Um, in addition, we’ve got kind of privacy front and center in the public space and everyone is, you know, today there’s, um, headlines that range from, you know, deleting all of your data on Facebook to facial recognition, to location data. I mean all of these things which are fighting against anything, any story that the marketer is trying to put together. So it creates even a larger challenge for marketers who then have these giant campaign strategy integration projects that just get thrown out the window when something, yeah. So, um, I actually, I like your question. Like we were like, let’s talk about the basics because I think the basics can help us answer a lot of these questions if we just did those and then add on top of it. And I think sometimes we want to go to the cool new sophisticated something or other because of skipping it. Yeah. Cause it feels like it’s the magic bullet or silver bullet.


Andy: Yeah, absolutely. And we talk a lot about here. Um, it’s, it’s almost there’s a, the crowd of your consumers. We see them joining in two different places. The first crowd, uh, the first time they come as kind of the website. Yeah. Right. And if you can figure out a way to, to know who they are, um, and then ideally a subset of that crowd shows up at your store and they purchase. So those two points of data, I’m assuming you’re doing a good job of finding out who that anonymous website visitor is and turning that into a known in-market consumer. Um, and then if they purchase, that’s going to be in your CRM or your POS or whatever. Uh, and you just match those two and that, that, that now that’s, that’s hard. Uh, you have to have enough of both for it to matter.


Andy: Um, ideally you already have sales taking place in-store, but you have to have enough in-market consumer data. You have to have enough conversions taking on your site for it to be remotely statistically relevant. But at that point in time, now all of a sudden I can look at some basics and if you’re saying, okay, well, here’s where most of my traffic is coming from and in Google analytics. And I understand that, uh, you know, Facebook is better than Instagram is better than paid search is better than, you know, display whatever. Uh, you at least can start to look at the big buckets. Yes. And, um, more to your point, I think I’m not only agreeing, but I’m kind of reiterating what you’re saying. Don’t worry so much about saying that at the foundational level, I need to know that a 6% of my digital average tightening spins should be from 20 to 24-year-olds in, you know, in northwest Seattle on Tuesday at four between four and eight. Like yeah. You just need to know that maybe 20% should be on Facebook, right. Start there and then you can figure out how to dissect a better, a better spend of that 20%. Yes.


RJ: Yeah, yeah, exactly. You gotta just, uh, start and then iterate. Yup. That’s, you know, it’s, it’s the long road.


Andy: Yes. Yeah. If you want to get there, you at least have to start somewhere. And I think that’s the other thing is you’ll get into those, uh, philosophical arguments about what type of attribution model to use. And those are, I’m like, how about pick one, right? Yeah. And then we can figure out what’s wrong with that once, if you’re actually doing it very well, and then we can go to the next one and see if it tells you something different. Yeah. Awesome. Well, listen, we’re going to, we’ll get a couple of questions for you to get out of here on, um, any else before we jump into that Fabian and I’m missing.


Fabian: Yeah. And I mean, two real quick things. One, I want to know what you consider to be your competitive advantage, right? Like going back to the basics. Seems like that would not be it, but as we’re talking, it seems like it very much could be.


RJ:  Yes. Yeah. Well, um, I think Pattern 89 our competitive advantage is that it’s super easy to use and we get really excited about artificial intelligence and how we’ve got billions in revenue and we’re running 2,900 different algorithms every 24 hours by, you know, like, but really what the marketer cares about is what do I do? And we’ve made it really, really simple for our customers to take advantage of it. So it’s, um, I think our UX and our UI on top of all of that data, but really it’s the way we present the information to a customer.


Fabian: For people who aren’t using data to make marketing decisions. How big of a mistake is that today?


RJ: Uh, you got to stop listening to this podcast and go, go, go start right now. No, it’s, I think it’s, we have all this data. I mean, we have it at our fingertips and we can make so much, uh, so many better decisions about everything. So yeah, it’s, it’s the mistake.


Fabian: Got it.


Andy: Awesome. How do you keep yourself educated?


RJ: I like, uh, to read. Um, and


Andy: The written word or the, uh, or the spoken?


RJ: About three summers ago I started taking the bus to work in Indianapolis, not a lot of people take the bus, but I take the bus. And so that’s my reading time. And, um, so I like to read and I like to read things that aren’t really related to business, just to kind of like let your brain, whatever. I just read this awesome book called Say Nothing that’s all about the IRA, Irish Republican Army. It is an awesome book.


Andy: I’m writing it down.


RJ: And then over the weekend I read a book, um, by Roxanne Gay that’s called Hunger, which is her memoir about her body and struggles with that. Um, and then I just started this book on Richard Nixon and like, you know, I don’t know anything about these topics. It’s like, I love to read nonfiction and, um, you can learn so much about all sorts of things from that, but, um, I, you know, I love to read.


Fabian: What are you currently obsessed with?


RJ: I have four kids and my two things I’m currently obsessed with… one is our garden. Gardening’s a fun thing to do. Molly, my four kids are seven and under it, it’s a fun thing to do with kids cause we just get messy and that’s fun. So my wife’s family has a greenhouse… I mean from seed, like tons of stuff. So we got all these plants and they’re all great and healthy. So I’m obsessed with the garden and figuring out like our seeds are coming up or not. And then birdwatching is another thing that I’m into, which is, which is funny because I’ve got all these bird feeders around, but like my kids love Falcons and hawks, any birds of prey. And so if I get somebody talking about birdwatching, I’m like tell me about what birds you seen. And it’s pretty ridiculous. But like in the last two or three years, I like reading birdwatching books and like have a poster that we tried to identify the birds outside the window at the birdfeeder.


Andy: That’s awesome. So I’ve got something for you after this. Least favorite activity.


RJ: My least favorite activity is traffic, sitting in traffic drives me crazy. I hate driving in traffic.


Andy: You and Elon Musk.


RJ: Oh, does he?


Andy: That’s his whole, I mean obviously that’s not his puzzle portion of his mission. Uh, no, he just thinks she shouldn’t be driving. If you’re just sitting and you’re reading and it doesn’t feel like, yes. Yeah. I, which I am down with not driving.


RJ: I feel like I took control of life. I feel like I have this extra hour of my life by taking the bus. I’m like, ha ha, I did it. But yeah, I, I get really frustrated and like we live here in Indiana, which is a wonderful place to live with, like such little traffic, but any amount of traffic, I’m like, I could be doing something else my time. I could be, you know, and then people get all frustrated and road ragey and that type of stuff.


Andy: I told, so I told my wife that if there was a measure of like gross happiness index…  if autonomous vehicles, and I know that’s also like a religious word is when you talk about that, but let’s assume that it actually happened. I think the gross happiness index of us as people would skyrocket because we wouldn’t get behind the car and we wouldn’t be in charge of driving the vehicles and when we get home, we’d feel a hell of a lot better.


RJ: I think you’re right. I think you’re right. I certainly do on the days that I don’t drive.


Andy: I’m jealous of your ability to take a bus. We don’t work downtown. Um, the best answer we’ve heard so far. I liked the traffic. Another person said waiting. I’m like, that’s true. Waiting is a challenge. Yes. Well, listen, man, this has been incredibly insightful and we are lucky to have had you on the podcast. Thank you so much.


RJ: Yep. I’m glad to be a part of it. Excited to listen to all the other episodes.


Andy: Awesome. All right. Take care. Thank you.


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